Interview: J&K (Janne Schafer og Kristine Agergaard)

The Babylon Case is an unusual project, in that it is shown as part of the factual, archaeological display in a large-scale historical exhibition, and is being communicated as a time-capsule send to our civilization from a future age. It is a hexagon shaped wooden cabinet; a miniature museum displaying a series of dioramas that are your artistic interpretations of the many-faceted symbolism of Babylon. The large exhibition “Babylon. Myth and Truth” is presented in two separate parts, the “Truth”-section in which we find your work, and which contains actual artifacts of the Babylonian civilization, and the “Myth”-section showing a vast number of historical and contemporary artworks that use the imagery of Babylon. How does The Babylon Case tie in with your project at large?

Schäfer: We have been investigating the notion of civilization in our work for a few years through installations and interventions, looking at the European/Western cultural identification relating to the ancient cradles of civilization, Egypt and Babylon/Mesopotamia. One focus has been the religious, political and cultural connections between the diverging cultures that are all based on the three big monotheisms. These are cultures that all share the same geographical and, to a large extend, mythological origin. On one hand we are curious to understand how current political conflicts are rooted in ancient constellations and mythologies. At the same time, we wish to question the whole idea of cultural self-identification, and with it the concept of Western civilization; a phenomena that is only a few hundred years old, yet seems to be a governing mental constitution, determining our world as if it was an ancient measure.

Agergaard: These questions might seem lofty, so our task is to tackle such inquiries in a humorous yet critical manner, without giving easy answers. One of the main strategies in our work is to point towards how truth-production is relative to its context; the eye of the beholder, simply speaking. We do this with different means; by placing our own very personal investigation in the foreground and by presenting facts and fiction on the same level. As a result, we create playful versions of reality that in themselves function as “truth models” in their own right. This strategy works as a subversion of fixed modes of identification, like for example the model of “Western civilization”.

Schäfer: Whilst being a synonym for the cradle of Western civilization, "Babylon" stands for complexity. Different cultures and religions offer a variety of answers, and Babylon can be read in multiple ways - the intricacy of the theme is overwhelming. Babylon is a place in Iraq, a metaphor for utopian ideas and constructions, for the development of high culture and its downfall, for language and confusion, for empire, cosmopolitanism and war between cultures and religion to mention a few. Babylon is truth and myth at once, it refuses to fall into binary schemes and as such it functions as an ideal model for engaging with the complexity of the world.

Agergaard: The Babylon Case – a time capsule for our civilization is an interplay between factual, historical, mythological, and self invented elements bound together in a narrative that claims a somewhat objective truth. Presented in the form of museum labels, this narrative visually refers to the language of the museum. Being neither true nor false, the work sits at the interface between self-invention and playful commentary, reflecting on how authoritative structures are imposed on the viewer through the authority and language of the museum.

J&K The Babylon Case installation

Although humorous, the work has an apocalyptic edge to it, which becomes clear in one of the diorama showing the “Universal Museum of Human Civilization” in ruins. Where does this term come from - and is your vision of the future quite pessimistic?

Agergaard: We are not actually suggesting a concrete future vision but are ‘zooming out’ of our own time-frame in order to create distance to our limited cultural self-perception, and our relation to history. The “Universal Museum of Human Civilization” is a direct quote of the grand name that the National Museum has given to the planned Museum Island project in Berlin. Our vision, that the Pergamon Museum will one day lay in ruins overgrown by jungle, is a reminder that our civilization too will decay. This is a further testimony to the relative nature of cultural self-importance, commenting on how we perceive our particular civilization and the role it plays in the grand scheme of history. There is no negative or positive future outlook in the work – just a kind of point zero from where everything stands open, and from where we cannot judge or interpret what might happen.

Schafer: In a way this is truly apocalyptic! In the sense of revealing something that was previously hidden or covered.

What led to you being invited to exhibit at The Pergamon Museum, in this unusual context?

Schafer: The museum is one of the Western institutions that contribute strongly to this definition of cultural self-identification. Back in 2005 we did some general research for an installation (The Academy – Teachings on History), and were looking at how museums of cultural history present scientific proof of civilization in a highly dramatic and fictive manner. This led us to visit the Pergamon Museum in Berlin, where we were absolutely astonished by the presentation of original and reconstructed Babylonian monuments. We became almost obsessive in our research, and started planning a trilogy of works dedicated to Babylon, in which each work would have its own specific angle and operate in specific contexts, applying different media to each. The Babylon Case is the second work in the trilogy, the first being Babylon Shuttle Bus and Talks on Babylon focusing on the public space and participation. The third work will be in the context of cinema/TV and will be realized during the next two years.

Agergaard: Our first encounter produced a strong vision to realize a work inside the Pergamon Museum. In her MA thesis at the Institute for Art in Context at the University of the Arts Berlin, Janne analysed the Pergamon Museum’s display of the Babylonian collection, from the perspective of museological representation, and looking at the dilemma between scientific truth-values and theatrical communication. The conclusion of the thesis was the suggestion of an actual artwork by J&K, intervening with the museum and dealing with Babylon as a theme, whilst reflecting on the museologic language. The suggestion was entirely utopian at the time, and after negotiating with the museum for the following two years, we were getting ready to drop it altogether, when a possibility surprisingly presented itself through Dr. Marzahn, a senior Assyriologist and Babylon expert at the Pergamon Museum. Marzahn is curator of the archaeological section of the temporary exhibition "Babylon: Myth and Truth", and offered us a room within the museum parallel to this large show, the sole condition being that we would organize and finance the project completely by ourselves.

J&K The Babylon Case detalje

Did you experience any interference or restrictions – or interesting dialogues?

Schafer: We were in fact given complete artistic freedom to develop the work and the communication around it from start to end, and it was a unique opportunity to operate within an otherwise rather inaccessible institutional framework. From an organizational perspective, the work functions as an independent temporary exhibition within the museum, independent of Babylon. Myth and Truth and the National Museum administration.

Agergaard: We were thrilled to learn that the museum had stipulated the conceptual opposition between “Truth” and “Myth” and that they decided to offer us a space within the “Truth” section, which was an ideal constellation for the development of our work, offering us the possibility to explore a ‘third space’ for questioning the polarities of truth and myth altogether. This only supported our vision of Babylon itself as an interface where notions of fact and fiction are inseparable. That the visitor experiences the installation as an integral part of the “Truth” section of the exhibition, perfectly supports the character of intervention and emphasizes the entanglement of myth and truth in the work.

How did you decide to involve me, as an independent curator, to offer support on the project?

Agergaard: Functioning as artists, curators and organizers all in one presented a challenge as the work had to be contextualized very precisely in order to claim its place within both the museum and the temporary exhibition. Also, we were faced with a much wider audience from what we are used to, the museum expecting half a million visitors this summer, an audience which, to a large extend consists of tourists from all over the world. In order to meet all of these challenges we decided to involve you.

Schafer: We knew this would mean a very intimate collaboration, because of our close relationship as colleagues, but also due to your vision and profile as a curatorial advisor generating critical dialogue, while drawing on your experience as an artist. In this case we decided to ask you to be involved in the artistic process as well, and this was an ideal combination for us, although you don’t normally mix the two roles. We hugely benefited from the fact that you have followed our practice for many years and were able to enter the project at a late stage in a very thorough manner.

One of the outcomes of my involvement was the editing of a catalogue, and its design along with other PR material by the London-based designers Åbäke, who have a very specific approach to visual communication. Can you say something about how you experienced the process, and how the communication feeds back to the work? Also, what made you decide to commission catalogue-essays by Michael Fehr and Nicholas Mirzoeff, both professors in cultural theory?

Schafer: As a general thing, I appreciate how critical essays, in this case by Michael Fehr and Nicholas Mirzoeff, as well as the graphic design by Åbake plays an independent role in relation to the work. None of these in themselves illustrate the project, but rather run parallel to it, creating new layers that produce dialogue rather than confirm a certain position. As an artist it is sometimes difficult to give up control of these areas, why I think it is important to allow oneself to be challenged. A project of this size certainly benefits from strong collaborative partners.

With the next part of the Babylon Trilogy in a TV setting, it sounds like you are planning to continue the strategy of exhibiting in contexts outside of contemporary art?

Schafer: The third part of the trilogy will be a movie trailer for a non-existent film. The plot is woven around the adventure genre and again involves the element of time traveling; J&K appear as the heroine-duo setting out to solve `the riddle of Babylon´ and rewrite the entire history of civilization. The interventional strategy of this project is not dissimilar to how The Babylon Case operates within the museum, and we are planning to produce the trailer in a cinema format playing with blockbuster-aesthetics. The aim is to insert the piece into actual trailer programs in cinema and possibly TV, hopefully creating confusion as to whether the film is ‘real’ or not.

J&K The Babylon Case detalje

Agergaard: Cecilie, I would like to throw the last question back to you - what experiences have you taken from The Babylon Case, and from your hybrid role?

As a curator, I like to develop long-term relationships with artists, collaborating over shorter, intensive periods. I have followed your work closely, and in this project I saw a potential for your practice to take a real leap forward. You have recently had a major exhibition in Copenhagen, and it seemed a natural next step to challenge your interest in relative truth-production within the institution itself, one of the targets of your subtle critique. These moments of change and rupture are real gems for understanding a practice in depth, if you are lucky enough to witness them at close hold.

The premise was off course irresistible; sneaking through the backdoor of one of Europe’s most powerful museums, surprisingly without meeting much resistance, and having to consider an unusually diverse audience. I liked the premise of Babylon. Myth and Truth, which focuses on the idea that our civilization needs the myth of Babylon to understand itself. Relating your work to this broad context was an obvious opportunity, whilst I think your wish to circumvent the image of Babylon as a city of eternal apocalypse and downfall, really had something to offer. In the face of war and continued American policeman-politics in the Middle East, I can hardly think of a more relevant subject.

J&K The Babylon Case installation