Interview: Jonathan Meese and Tal R

Daniel Richter, Tal R, kopenhagens Helene Nyborg Andersen and Jonathan Meese at the Mor-opening at Statens Museum for Kunst

We live in a time where focus is very much on science and technology. In Mor (Mother) your starting point is Freud and psychoanalysis. Why is that?

Tal: I think the language of psychoanalysis is something you can put on top of the things that Jonathan and I work with. We didn’t work from the point of that kind of language, or from the knowledge of psychology. This is just a language that is parallel to the things that we dig into. It's not that we know something about psychology, and then we work from there. It's just a language. We are even before this language, even before Freud. It's like a pre-born (amøbe)... I don't know the word in English.

Jonathan: Yeah, it's about nature, Mother Nature, Mother Earth, something totally mysterious. And this is also science, but science that we will never be able to understand. Nature has its own rules that we will never understand, like art - or mothers. We are separate from them, we come from them, and then we have to say goodbye. We can respect each other, but that’s all we can do, there’s nothing more to say. We will never control them. I will never control my mother, I will never control art, I will never control anything. This is some kind of respect that we have to give to the things.

Jonathan Meese & Tal R: Mor (installationview), 2005.

Where is the father in all this?

Tal: I think he's there. You usually talk about, that there is a mother behind a son or there is a woman behind a man. So this time the show is about everything that’s over, everything that’s under. It doesn’t mean that the father is at the centre, he's just not important this time. It's not his turn. The driven force behind this show is also that a son can be a father, but a daughter can be a mother. Something is not completely fair. Somebody I knew once - a young man - said to me that he thought it was not fair that you where born by somebody, but you have to take care of yourself. And this sentence has never left me. You are actually born by somebody, like presented by somebody and you have to take care of yourself. It's like a puzzle for me, and this puzzle you can solve by normal logic, normal boring logic. But the puzzle is still there.

Jonathan: This is a very important point for me also. To let yourself fall and to let the things happen. What Tal said is exactly the thing; art is born but then it's totally independent. It does what it wants to do. Whether Tal, me, my mother or Picasso did something is not so important. It was done, and it had to be done at a certain time to be done. Finished. Then we will go on, or art will go on.

Tal: You have like a personal timing, which means that there are things that are right for you. So to make it very simple, what is this show about? When you work two people together you find a common timing. For Jonathan and me there has been a ball in the air at the same time. This is what this show is. You cannot decide what ball you want in the air. You have to look what is up there. The way we work together is without force. There's nothing in it that's like work. It's just to sit down and wonder which kind of ball is in the air and then we hit it together. That's how we do it.

Jonathan: You cannot use your mother. You cannot instrumentalize her or mothers in general. It was just time now to do that. Maybe daddy is the next. You never know. Maybe it's the rockets next stage. But maybe there’s an animal in between or a plant or something else. I don't know. Maybe it was perfect timing without knowing.

Tal: Pink knowledge.

Jonathan: Yes, Pink and brown knowledge.

What is your common starting point as artists? You are working in very different ways. Tal, you are very cool and colouristic in your approach, and Jonathan, you work usually in more performative ways…

Tal: It's completely opposite. I've heard this three times now. That I'm like cool and this, and Jonathan is more... maybe it's completely opposite. In the end, the motor inside... you know, you have a car, one looks like this, one looks like... you never know what is actually the motor inside. The other day we talked about the second title of this show could be: We are sorry. So if you ask what our starting point is, the answer to this is that the second title is We Are Sorry. Sorry.

Sorry about what?

Tal: I can't say anymore. I say this is the answer to your question; What kind of place do you work from? And the answer is; We are sorry, I'm sorry.

Jonathan: Yeah. If I should describe my position in this, it's a little shame. There is a little bit of shame. I'm ashamed. But some things have to be done, whether they are ok, good or bad I don't know. It will decide itself.

Tal: And if you have shame, you have art. Because I'm sorry is an image. You say I feel shame, you say I'm sorry. I'm sorry is just an image. That's where art begins. In a way that's what we do. Shame, I'm sorry, that's a picture, an image. I'm sorry.

That’s also an understated approach...

Tal: That's the only way I can explain it at the moment. I think after Jonathan and I have been talking so much the last few days, that's where we are.

Jonathan: It is in fact not our approach, it's the approach of the thing itself. There is something approaching us. As well as you, my mother, Tal’s parents, my father. It's the same surprise for us as for you. It's a total surprise.

(Daniel Richter comes by)

Tal: Can we involve a third person in the interview?

Yeah, sure we can.

Tal: We need a witness. Daniel, please sit down. Maybe you can ask Daniel about Jonathan and me.

Daniel Richter		Tal R		Jonathan Meese

Okay. So, Daniel, what can you say about Tal and Jonathan as artists?

Daniel: As artists I think different about them than as persons. As persons they are kind of greedy and clumsy, not very nice. Very often there is this mythology about the artist, that he has to be anti-social or egomaniac. And they both are. As artists they are both very good, and this transcribes their evilness. The work itself is formalistically plundering the archives of art history on one hand, and putting penises and infantilism everywhere else. Something very relieving and enjoyable, because it on one hand deals with seriousness of history and on the other hand uses it like a child’s play - on a very high level. But as persons they suck.

Jonathan: I want to answer Daniel and say that I'm feeling sorry about it all. I'm in the tenth pre-puberty. Daniel is in the seventeenth and is uncountable. We want to come closer, but it is very difficult.

You are all very connected to the Berlin art-scene...

Jonathan: No.

Tal: Just the cafés.

Daniel: The truth is that Jonathan is coming from Hamburg, so am I, and Tal is coming from Copenhagen, so it’s more a northern European phenomenon. Berlin is just cheap, so it's a good place to go. It's not a place that in itself is as nice as Copenhagen - or Hamburg.

Where is the next melting pot for contemporary art?

Daniel: I think it will be Berlin, because Berlin is the cheapest place in Europe, and students and young people go where it's cheap.

Tal: It's a matter of practical things. It's got nothing to do with inspiration. Where can you get a cheap cup of coffee, that’s the next melting pot.

Daniel: Studios, a cheap studio. It’s a very materialistic point of view, but Berlin is empty. It's a very empty town. Still, it's not rich, it's not a bourgeois town, there is so much space you can rent. It's the first thing you need. You need some food and a place to work. You can't get that in Paris or Copenhagen or Hamburg, because these are expensive bourgeois towns.

You are superstars on the contemporary art-scene today...

Daniel: They are not. They are not superstars. Dead people are superstars... They are alive.

Jonathan: In fact, I want to be treated as if I'm dead. Then you are not annoyed by so many people. You should breathe, but you should be treated as if you are dead. Otherwise they keep you away from working. They should pay respect and just give you money and leave you alone. This is important.

What is there to fight for today for the arts?

Daniel: It's too much to ask. There is so much obvious evilness in the world that it is really ridiculous to talk about it as an artist, because the artist is mainly focusing on himself and his relation to art history and society. Everybody does that. I would say that the world needs more good confectioners and less bad painting.

Thank you

Jonathan Meese & Tal R: Mor (installationview), 2005.

Jonathan Meese & Tal R: Mor (installationview), 2005.

Jonathan Meese & Tal R: Slowmotion Orgy (freud for animals), 2005. Mixed media		Jonathan Meese & Tal R: Slowmotion Orgy (freud for animals), 2005. Mixed media		Jonathan Meese & Tal R: Slowmotion Orgy (freud for animals), 2005. Mixed media

Jonathan Meese: Der Propagandist, 2005. Bronze Falckenberg Collection, Hamburg		Jonathan Meese: Der Propagandist, 2005. Bronze Falckenberg Collection, Hamburg

Jonathan Meese: Untitled, 2005. Oil on canvas		Jonathan Meese: Untitled, 2005. Mixed media on canvas

Jonathan Meese: Mich gibt's auch in Milchform, 2005. Oil on canvas		Jonathan Meese: Du, 2005. Oil on canvas		Jonathan Meese: Die Frau mit den Blutäuglein ist wach geworden duch Deinen Tod, 2005. Oil on canvas		Jonathan Meese: Eis aus Dir, 2005. Oil on canvas

Jonathan Meese: Jonny selbst, 2002-05. Photography, paint		Jonathan Meese: Bobby, 2002-05. Photography, paint		Jonathan Meese: DR. NO, 2002-05. Photography, paint
Jonathan Meese: Mutter und Kaiser von Japan, 2002-05. Photography, paint		Jonathan Meese: Missernte, 2002-05. Photography, paint		Jonathan Meese: St. Hass, 2002-05. Photography, paint

Jonathan Meese: Saalernte, 2002-05. Photography, paint		Jonathan Meese: Gott, 1999-2000. Photography

Jonathan Meese: Mother, 2004. Bronze Sammlung Rheingold, Düsseldorf		Jonathan Meese: Mother, 2004. Bronze Sammlung Rheingold, Düsseldorf

Jonathan Meese: French Revolution, 2000. Mixed Media		Jonathan Meese: French Revolution, 2000. Mixed Media		Jonathan Meese: French Revolution, 2000. Mixed Media

Jonathan Meese: Priest Tal and Rabbi Meese, 2005. Mixed media		Jonathan Meese: Priest Tal and Rabbi Meese, 2005. Mixed media

Tal R: Mothership, 2003. Mixed media		Tal R: Mothership, 2003. Mixed media

Tal R: Arcade, 2003. Collage, fabric		Tal R: Arise, 2003. Collage, fabric

Tal R: Policeman, 2001. String on panel		Tal R: Mor, 2001. String on panel		Tal R: Mayor, 2001. String on panel
Tal R: Half, 1998. Oil on board		Tal R: Halff, 1998. Oil on board		Tal R: Halfff, 1998. Oil on board

Tal R: Pommel and Pommerans, 2005. Bronze		Tal R: Pommel and Pommerans, 2005. Bronze

Tal R: Berries, 2005. Bronze Douglas Oliver, New York		Tal R: Cherry, 2005. Bronze		Tal R: Cherry, 2005. Bronze
Tal R: Apple and apple, 2005. Bronze		Tal R: Apple and apple, 2005. Bronze		Tal R: Apple and apple, 2005. Bronze

Tal R: Alexia, 2003. 155 x 170 x 150 cm. Fabric, wood		Tal R: Alexia, 2003. 155 x 170 x 150 cm. Fabric, wood

Tal R: Krater, 2000. Collage on paper		Tal R: Viva Ultra, 2000. Collage on paper
Tal R: Viva Ultra, 2000. Collage on paper

Tal R: To Clean for Fruite, 1998. Collage on paper		Tal R: Chokhaus, 1999. Drawing on paper		Tal R: Sculpture have, 1999. Drawing on paper
Tal R: Hospitals Food, 1999. Drawing on paper

Tal R: Palace, 2004-05. Alkyd paint on chipboard, beer-bottle caps		Tal R: Palace, 2004-05. Alkyd paint on chipboard, beer-bottle caps		Tal R: Pppalace, 2004-05. Alkyd paint on chipboard, beer-bottle caps
Tal R: Pppppalace, 2004-05. Alkyd paint on chipboard, beer-bottle caps

Tal R: Dokumentar, 2000. Serigraphy		Tal R: Dokumentar, 2000. Serigraphy		Tal R: Dokumentar, 2000. Serigraphy
Tal R: Dokumentar, 2000. Serigraphy		Tal R: Dokumentar, 2000. Serigraphy

Tal R: U, 2005. EPS, paint, epoxy		Tal R: U, 2005. EPS, paint, epoxy		Tal R: Uu, 2005. EPS, paint, epoxy
Tal R: Uuu, 2005. EPS, paint, epoxy

Jonathan Meese & Tal R: Mor (detail), 2005.		Jonathan Meese & Tal R: Mor (detail), 2005.

Jonathan Meese & Tal R: Mor (installationview), 2005.

Jonathan Meese & Tal R: Mor (installationview), 2005.

Jonathan Meese & Tal R: Mor (installationview), 2005.