Interview: Matthias Wermke & Mischa Leinkauf

Matthias Wermke & Mischa Leinkauf: Zwischenzeit, 2008, 17 min. Video.		Matthias Wermke & Mischa Leinkauf: Zwischenzeit, 2008, 17 min. Video.

Will you introduce us to the exhibition?

Matthias: The title of the piece is Zwischenzeit, which means In Between. It's a seventeen minutes long three channel video installation, which we shot in 2007 and edited it until sommer 2008. It's about a journey in the city of Berlin with a handcar in the U-Bahn.

How come you decided to present it like this - as a three channel video installation?

Mischa: We already had it in mind when shoot the video.

Matthias: We felt that one screen wasn't enough to give an impression of the space, so when we started shooting we decided from the beginning that it needed to be a three channel installation.

Tell me about the title, Zwischenzeit. In between what?

Mischa: When you're travelling with the U-Bahn you only see the platforms at the stations, and Zwischenzeit is what happens between these stations. Both time and space in between stations are something you don't see nor think about.

Matthias: In your daily rutines you want to get from point A to B as fast as possible. You may know the stations, but the space in between is much bigger. You don't realize it, because you just use it for transportation, but the grafittiwriters are much more interestet in those places than in the stations.

Are you still active as graffiti writers?

Matthias: Yea.

Mischa: I'm not. I'm done with it.

Do you see this project as another way to take back a public space that is very regulated in the way that graffiti writers does?

Matthias: Yeah, as a graffiti writer you always have to find some kind of space that you take back in order to express something in your own way. That's one thing this performance and grafitti has in common.

Mischa: Except that in the video it's all about the performance. It's not about leaving a permanent trace anymore.

Matthias: And that's different then. As a writer i leave my trace for people to see that I've been there - it's all about fame. Performing is not about leaving a trace, it's just about the effect.

Of course making the video for an exhibition makes it somehow a permanent thing, and everytime we show it it's a kind of re-enactment. It reminds people that we've actually been to these places.

Matthias Wermke & Mischa Leinkauf: Zwischenzeit, 2008, 17 min. Video.		Matthias Wermke & Mischa Leinkauf: Zwischenzeit, 2008, 17 min. Video.

I read on Pixels webside that Zwischenzeit is not about telling a story, but about a condition. How is that to be understood?

Matthias: We just had a simple image in mind of a guy walking down the tracks, and it wasn't meant to be a story. Usually if you work with films people expect you to tell where the travel starts and then unfolds a narrative that leads to the end. This is actually a never endning journey: we don't stop anywhere or try to get to a certain place.

Mischa: That's what we mean by "a condition". That it's more about the performance and less about the direction and the goal.

Can you describe this kind of condition?

Matthias: For me it's a very emotional and slow moment, and a complete focus on one thing. I use my body as a muscle to do what i want to and at the same time I feel completly free. I have the same feeling when i do grafitti or sport; it's a moment where I don't think anymore.

How long did you prepare for this?

Mischa: Four years!

How was it practically done? It looks quite dangerous...

Mischa: We did a lot of research. We learned about time tables and signals. We made the handcars light and flexible.. Actually we had two track cars; the one you see in the video, and my wagon, which was a camera dolly with an electric motor. We took the motor from an electric scooter and transformed it, and the actual wagons are made of aluminium, which is why they are so light. They weight less than 20 kilos - so we could transport them as backpacks and get away easily if we were about to get caught.

Matthias: It's of course illegal to got into the tunnels, and we didn't have permission either...

Matthias Wermke & Mischa Leinkauf: Zwischenzeit, 2008, 17 min. Video.

And you are wearing clothes that in my oppinion is supposed to signify that this is a completely normal guy. It's bright clothes because it makes him more visible...

Matthias: We were never really satisfied with that I'm wearing here. First of all we wanted to find something that didn't fit into the prejudice of graffiti guys wearing hoodies and dark clothes, which wouldn't have made sense in this piece. Then we needed contrast for technical reasons, so white clothes made sense.

But I need to say something about the kind of jacket I'm wearing here. I was showing this piece to the girlfriend of the guy who helped us with the sound editing. She hadn't seen me for 10 years and she said: "this is like the original mid 90's grafitti writers style". And it's true; no one thinks your a writer when you wear a white jacket. When you look like a fancy college guy no one expect you to be a vandal.

You could say that here you're dressed out as a normal guy?

Mischa: Yes that's what we wanted to have: A normal guy.

Wouldn't it have been much easier for you if you were dress out as workers?

Mischa: Right, when we go to these places, both of us wear these orange trackworkers vests. We'll always be able to make it looking like workers. Everybody thinks we know what we're doing...

Is the illegal aspect important to you?

Mischa: I think there's no way to do it with permission. If you had to get the permission it would have taken forever...

Matthias: ...and also it wouldn't be the same. They would pull you aside and say: "Okay, now you can and now you can't". There wuld be a lot restrictions, and that's exactly what we try to get away from. I mean, in the subculture actually it becomes a habbit to follow the same old rutine of never ending rebel or outlaw-bullshit. From time to time I get tired of it, but at the same time it's very refreshing. In life there is so many things that have the restrictions and guideline that you have to follow, and this is a nice way to try to escape from those. That's also the reason why I used to to graffiti; It's free.

The kind of wagons that you use have been used for as long time as there have been railroads. I have the association to pioneers when I see them. Did you think about this?

Matthias: If I look back on what inspired me from my grafitti background to the point where I am now, it's grafitti writers - mainly scandinavians - who use the energy of the graph in a different way. They were the first people who were able to translate the feeling of the graph into a different visuality. In that sense they are pioneers for me. I saw what they were doing, and even though they were doing it in an exhibiting context, it still didn't feel fake. I saw the energy and I understood what they were trying to say. And maybe in that sense it's a compliment to say that it's a pioneering thing, because in grafitti there is this kind of competition of anything, of who does more, and is more extreme. Somehow it's repeating itself over and over again, and it's just nice to see the european generation growing up and finding different ways of dealing with that energy and background, and still inspire. It would be nice if we with this piece could pull something out that gives energy to some younger guys, who then give us a feedback that punches us in the face and make us realize, that it's time to say that we're still alive. There's always this competition thing.. but it can be a very positive motivator.

Generally this kind of work is very introvert. Grafitti on the other hand is not expressionist, but it is very expressive, and so grafitti is really about having a audience and being in your face with the audience. And here it's almost hidden from the public. So it seems as if it's in the documentary the piece lives. So therefore in the documentary is where the piece lives, or where it lives like art, it's just something you do for yourself.

Matthias: When we had the idea it was of course just for ourselves, because we couldn't expect to have an audience for it. But of course it changes with time. I'm interested in this idea in it, but the moment the art becomes public it's dead.

Thank you.