[May 22nd 2003]
Interview

ASH

A bad boy comes to town
Interview with ASH
of the legendary Bad Boys Crew

ASH
The Farm
April 25 - May 24
the leisure club MOGADISHNI
Carl Jacobsens Vej 16, 2^nd Floor, Valby
Tel: +45 32 54 35 35
Thu-Fri 12-17, Sat 12-15
mail@mogadishni.com
www.mogadishni.com

ASH: The Farm

We're having a dinner party in Monsieur ASH’s top floor apartment in the cosy neighbourhood of Nørrebro in the centre of Copenhagen. Appropriately, we’re 8 people with 5 different nationalities at this table. ASH's oldest son runs around with a huge gun and shoots at me and the other guests while I dance to the latest Baile Funk CD from Rio de Janeiro with his youngest kid in the kitchen.
Interview: Andreas Rosforth. First printed in Backjumps, Berlin.

The first time I saw ASH was in 1992 when I was in Uppsala, not far from Stockholm, for the Afrikaa Bambataa-jam organised by Duane. Duane had invited him and Skki and other famous and talented writers. There was a very intense atmosphere. The whole place was completely bombed and the only thing the hundreds of writers from all over the world were thinking about was going out to kill some trains. It was at a time when pieces on trains in Stockholm would run for quite a while. ASH did one with Skki and Duane.
The next time I met ASH face to face was in his studio in Paris at L'hopital Ephemere. I remember it was quite a small room and Aone was taking up most of the space with his huge paintings; he insisted on showing all of them to me, dragging them back and forth, posing for pictures, telling one unbelievable tale after the other. Meanwhile ASH was standing quietly in the corner, his huge headphones boosting some drum-n-bass-type-stuff. He was painting what I thought was a weird picture; some yellow abstract figures on a blue background with oil paint. He was completely into it. I would much rather talk with him, than listen to the American, but I only managed to get a few sparse sentences out of him; he talked about his crew and gave me a few tips on some spots to check out. Today Monsieur ASH doesn’t even recall our meeting back then in the early ‘90s. But what the fuck, now we hang out at least once a week.



ASH: The Farm

How did you come up with your name, did you choose it for the letters or what? Did you have any other names before ASH?
When I started spraying I had the name SAHO. I chose that name because of the letters. I put the letters together in the way I liked to work with them. Then in 1985 I got tired of the 'O'. The letter didn't permit me to make equilibrated lettering, so I cut it off and became simply ASH.

How long have you been writing and what influenced you to start writing in the streets?
Since I was a little kid I've been interested in painting and drawing, then as a teenager I took a break from drawing, because I was spending my days at Place Trocadero in Paris breakdancing or practising with my boys. I knew about graff a little bit because I was really into the Hip Hop movement, but it wasn't until I saw an American documentary that showed the bombed subway in New York and the book Subway Art that I really got involved with tagging and doing pieces.
Another reason that I got into graffiti is that it was a way for me to get back to drawing and painting again, at the same time as I was doing something exciting. I can't recall the exact date of my first piece, but it must have been around the beginning of winter ‘83-‘84.




You were one of the first to paint the metro in Paris, who were the other guys, tell us a little bit about that story.
Shortly after I started painting graff I met a guy who wrote Blitz. He was painting with Asphalt and Spirit (from La Force Alphabetique). I often met him in Jardin du Louvre, where it was legal to paint the boards around the park.
One day Blitz asked me if I wanted to do something on the metro. He had already prepared everything. I said okay, sure. As far as we knew nobody had done it before, so it was very exciting! So, we met one Sunday afternoon with Asphalt in a metro station that was only used to park the trains for the number 10 line that went to Boulogne in the west of Paris. We did one-and-a-half windows down the whole car: SAHO; BLITZ; ASPHALT. The next day I was waiting for the train to pull out, but unfortunately I never saw it. Only some time later on some very bad pictures Blitz managed to get.

You grew up in Paris and started your career there, but today you live in Denmark. Is the culture different in Copenhagen and has this influenced your work in any way?
In Copenhagen the atmosphere is much less competitive; compared to Paris it's much easier to do experiments. It's a little bit like everyone does what he likes to do. The only problem is that for some people this can make you weak in the long run, in that case you just gotta travel a lot to know what time it is.
In Danish society there's not much room for art, so in the beginning I couldn't make a living off my paintings, which meant I had to turn to graphics and working with my computer. This was great in a way because it made me develop my skills with the internet in the early days ‘95-‘96, a media that was much more interesting back then as opposed to today, when everything has turned completely commercial. That's why the internet is no longer one of my games!
It's true that the culture is different here, but my work has nothing to do with the environment that surrounds me. I like living here because it's easy living, but to get inspiration for my work I look towards what goes on globally.

ASH (saho) and Scipion, Paris 1986

Do you continue to paint graffiti like you did in Paris?
Before moving to Copenhagen I shared a studio with JonOne in Paris. I was doing canvases every day and every once in a while I painted in the streets. It was very simple. The work I do here is different from that, there's more variety. Sometimes I paint in the streets, I do some commercial murals, I work on canvas and I have been teaching graff-lessons for schools, which allowed me to paint outdoors every week for a few years.

How do you see the scene in Copenhagen artistically and graff-wise?
The graff scene is very interesting here, there's a lot of people who do some really great stuff and on top of that they stay very active. There's always panels running on the S-trains and whole cars being done every week, and abandoned buildings or factories are covered with fresh murals. All this is kept a little hidden because the writers here like to keep it underground.
Talking about art exposed in the galleries, I think in general most of it is a bit conservative. Apart from that there are different groups of artists who set up studios in old factories or warehouses and when you go visit them you can expect to see some very interesting art works.
Denmark is also good with design and graphics, though it's a shame there isn't the same kind of great innovation now compared to the past. There are some extremely talented young people here who could create stuff in the future, but often they prefer to move abroad where they'll get more attention and bigger paycheques. Unfortunately, the things that are doing well here in Denmark from a commercial perspective are a little bit too conservative for my taste.
They should give a chance to all the talented young people, like before when the Scandinavian countries were an example of tolerance and openness.


ASH, from the 80s

How do the police react towards vandalism? Racism?
The police stick to doing what they are told here, they act according to the law. The politicians make the laws and the politicians are elected by the people.
The middle class reads a lot of tabloid newspapers and watch the news on TV channels that aim to please and entertain their audience, because the bigger an audience the more money they can charge the advertisers. Because these media try to get the biggest part of the market possible, they tend to show stuff that scares people, so people are entertained, meaning stories about delinquents, immigration, anti-European stuff, etc. It's well known that drama sells.
Reality is totally different, compared to other European countries there isn't much immigration and violence is not a big issue here in Denmark. Because of all this the extreme right wing party is getting stronger. And even though the major part of the public doesn't give their vote to this party, the situation is reflected in all parts of the Danish society. For example it's quite difficult for foreigners to get a job, and then people think, they just come here to do nothing and make a profit from the system. It's really a shame to see this kind of development take place because of huge media companies that only think about making more money, no matter the cost. They make people less intelligent, they take the will of the individual away by becoming an increasingly bigger part of their life.
About graffiti, if you get caught you risk a severe jail sentence. 5 years ago things were different and easier because there was another kind of openness towards urban art. And often there were small graff schools organised and sponsored by governmental institutions. Today things have changed quite a bit!

You work a lot with your computer, are you still using elements of graff or tagging?
In the beginning I was using the computer solely as a tool to create graphics for the web or illustrations.
I haven't tried to make any art with it, because to me what I do on walls and canvas has nothing to do with what you can do with the computer. It's only since I started working with 3D programs that I've tried to create some digital works or to integrate elements from my canvases or graff lettering. 3D suits my style and gives me a lot of freedom of expression.

What do you think about web sites where each individual artist has his own virtual room to show the world his art?
I'm not against it. It's a very practical way to show what you're doing, because you reach so many people. But I really don't think seeing graffiti from the streets on the internet is very interesting, it quickly becomes pretty boring! Graff is part of the environment where it was created, and if you take that environment away, then you also take the energy and the riot out of the pieces and the tags.
To me computers are more like a tool for working and communicating and not to sit in front of and appreciate art works. It's like watching all the great films on your TV and never going to the cinema.

You’ve been giving lessons in graffiti for some years in Copenhagen, tell us about that experiment.
It used to be a way for the authorities to keep graff in legal spots, so they paid for all the kids' spray cans and then I would come twice a week and teach them the techniques etc. It was a very positive time and the kids were motivated. Sometimes I would bring them out to see what some of the big names in Copenhagen were doing. We participated in competitions and travelled around. It was a nice experience, because it also gave the kids some insight into other cultures and social environments in society.
Of course some of my students were doing illegal graffiti in their spare time, but in general most of them fulfilled their needs when they were painting with me. My goal was to make them work with the artistic quality of their pieces, and I never really talked about vandalism or illegal pieces and tags, etc.
Unfortunately the project was shot down because of the lack of financial support from the institutions, even though they considered the experiment a great success.

Don't you find it a little bit ironic to teach kids about graffiti when you know all along that they are gonna try out their new skills when they get out in the streets? How did you present the other side of graffiti -tagging- to these kids?
Just like I just said. Of course I knew that some of these kids would run out and paint outside of the frame of my project, you could never prevent that, but it was plain to see that in the neighbourhood there wasn't a single piece and very few tags, and I never even advised them not to paint outside of the project, that would have been ridiculous, because a basic element of graffiti is to make yourself be seen. In fact during the 4 years that I was teaching, there was only one student who became a real writer and went out to do pieces seriously in the city and on the trains. The rest stayed satisfied working with their style and finding legal spots where they could paint outside the project.

You have kids yourself, are they influenced by your art? Are you trying to initiate them into graff?
At the moment my kids are still quite young; 2 and 6 years. The youngest one likes to watch me work on the computer and sits next to me for hours. The oldest one is very interested in my paintings and insists on having them hung up in his room. When travelling around town by train I point out the interesting pieces and he's very curious about the subject. I still haven't tried to make him paint with a spray can because it's too difficult for a child to press down the cap. But soon he'll be able to try it if he wants to.
I don't want my kids to be glued to the TV screen or to be playing electronic games every day and fall victim to the propaganda that society is trying to inflict upon us. They have to get out there and get busy with stuff that will make them proud of themselves and I'm here to show them the way.

How did the Bad BC exhibition in Tokyo turn out? Is there an important graff scene in Tokyo?
The exhibition in Tokyo was a very nice experience. All 3 of us were very happy about this trip. It was a bit tough though, because we had just done the exhibition at Alife in New York (postponed one month because of the WTC bombings) and the one at Agnés B in Paris. Also being jetlagged didn't help us. But anyway we arrived full of energy and the good vibes stayed until the end of our stay. The Japanese have a very hungry-for-quality-approach to our movement, so they pay a lot of attention to even the smallest details. It felt nice for us as artists to be recognised and appreciated for what we are doing. In Tokyo I saw a lot of posters and stickers by Japanese artists and some Westerners. But concerning more traditional graff I only saw it in local magazines, at the moment the scene is still quite limited.
It's very difficult to paint in the big cities, because everything is so tight and tiny and you are in plain view wherever you go. The pieces are high quality but unfortunately all done outside of central Tokyo, and I didn't have the time to go and check out the suburbs.

Is it easy for you to travel in a group? What are the advantages and the inconveniences?
Bad BC has existed for almost 20 years now. We have outlived all other graffiti groups in Paris; all the others have split up more or less. I think we have managed to stay together for such an extensive period of time because of the fact that we always have such a good time when we do collaborations, we enjoy it. We have always followed the same direction politically and socially and never argued about things like that. Travelling in a group also allows us to put together our different points of view. We are all quite open to each others individual ideas but you still have to keep a common direction, otherwise it will be chaos. Because of this way of working one person in the group might stand out and impose his identity and personality in a project, depending on the tendency in the group at the specific moment.
Sometimes this can be problematic because we still all have our own visions in the making of our projects. Our individual work becomes necessary to express all the stuff that we can't get out when we are working as a group.
To stay independent from the group each one of us stays active on his own. This is also an important thing to keep the balance and respect between us.

Is music important for your work? What do you listen to at the moment?
Music is one of the most important elements that inspire me. Sometimes it takes a visual form in my mind, which is then reflected in my work. I've always preferred electronic music and black music in general. In my early teens I started to listen to electro funk records like Planet Rock, MC Craig G, Marley Marl and went on from there to The Latin rascals, Schooly D, Mantronix, Todd Terry, etc. Then in the ‘90s I got into stuff like Underground Resistance. And for the last few years I've mostly bought records from the label Warp, like Autechre. At the moment I listen to the latest Funkstörung among others...

What are your plans for the future?
Last year Bad BC got together to exhibit our work in different countries, it was very productive and I would like to continue on that track. Currently I'm working on setting up a Bad BC exhibition here in Copenhagen.
Personally, in my work, I want to keep going in the same direction that I started in 2001, I want to get back into the imagery of post-graffiti, and throw in a bit of organic stuff, bring nature into graffiti. And also develop the idea of making high tech with low tech, to show my engagement against the domination of technology and the uniformation of society.


More..
February 2nd 2003:Interview with ASH